First Nations peoples in settler-colonial Australia know what it is to be dehumanised, to exist in systems and structures that criminalise and oppress us and our lands and cultures. Curious about the ways forward in a reality that can at times feel deeply debilitating, Kirli Saunders sought the wisdom of two First Nations facilitators from the company Shifting Ground who work with organisations and individuals to foster decolonising practices to pave the path towards a radically hopeful future. With respect and acknowledgement, this conversation took place digitally across unceded Yawuru lands, Larrakia Country and Dharawal lands.

KIRLI SAUNDERS: I’ve been reading both of your work as I create my poetry collection, and I’m drawn to the intersection of abolition and decolonisation: can we start with these concepts?